artless artmore wrote:

Well, OK, so maybe my comments on your Idyl posts about "Studio" artists drawing qualitatively higher prices in the 90s than classic superhero art are overstated.  You're a good man to keep records of asking prices from bygone eras!  I have pretty extensive records of Frazetta sales from the dawn of eBay onward, along with the easy to find printed catalogs from earlier times, but I'm not as well versed with the superhero stuff from before the rise of Heritage and the other specialty auction houses.  Thank goodness for the sales records available at HA.com and CAF!

E DLS wrote:

Hmm, ultimately I think this is just a fun excercise.  These old prices don't really mean anything.  After all, what's done is done.  And when you think about it, current prices are in a way, almost just as meaningless.  The only time a piece of art becomes worth a stated value is when someone actually hands you that amount for it.  I could say my piece is worth a million dollars, but until someones hands me a mil, it isn't worth squat.  And markets (whether it's art or some other commodity) are so easily manipulated.  If you have a piece by Joe Blow that fetches a record price at auction, inevitably, the very next auction will be littered with Joe Blow pieces.  I've never looked at my art as an investment.  But my hanging on to it for so long might mistakenly give the impression that I do.  I don't even like to think of my art in monetary terms.  When I associate numbers with artwork, it means only one of two things.  It's either the number it will take for me to acquire it, or it's the number it will take for me to let go of it.  Otherwise, numbers don't even enter my mind.  Only when I'm forced to think in those terms.  Once I pay the price for a piece of art and it's in my collection, I try never to think of that number again.  Just a means to an end.  So yeah, it's fun to trace the numbers history of these pieces.  But at some point, getting too analytical about it makes it more work than fun.  Although I certainly understand that some people just have that mindset.  Nothing wrong with that.  If nothing else, it can make for some interesting discussions.

artless artmore wrote:

I'm with you that it's a good policy not to buy art with the expectation that it will take us to a comfortable retirement without making other arrangements, but I don't think the numbers are meaningless.  Perhaps the most important thing I learn when I see modest price tags for stuff I passed up on years ago that's worth a mint now is that I have little predictive power, so I should indeed cleave to my usual twin mantras 1) buy what I like & 2) buy what I can afford, rather than treating it as an investment.  That said, I know collectors much savvier than I who have made a killing in a short period of time, and they only deal in art by artists they love, so one can come out way ahead in short order and not compromise on aesthetic satisfaction.  I'm no business man, so I just make sure I'm tickled pink by whatever I acquire.  I think we can also learn something about the way the market works by studying past prices.  At my advanced age, at which point I should really know better, I managed to miss out on several pieces over the past couple years because I serially underestimate how quickly prices rise on the good stuff.  So now I find myself contemplating spending twice as much on pieces I could have had very recently, and that means getting half as many pieces for the same art budget I'm limited to, independent of whatever they might be worth in the future.  In any case, I've certainly enjoyed your nostalgic and educational posts!!

E DLS wrote:

So the one thing that stood out for me in your comment was your twin mantras.  When you think about it, they help make my point.  If we buy what we love and don't treat them as investments, then the numbers (old or new) DON'T really matter.  Correct?  I guess for me it's kind of like Jeopardy (miss you Alex).  It's fun to have a lot of general knowledge, but not as much fun when it becomes more of a study.  Of course as I say this, I also make it a point to tell new or young collectors to learn as much as they can.  Anyway my main and final point is, if we follow your mantras (and they're probably the only two you need), then it doesn't matter if the pieces you buy sky rocket in price or become completely worthless.  Because what you love about them has nothing to do with dollars.

By the way, I just want to take this opportunity to say how much I really appreciate and enjoy your comments.  They're always interesting and well thought out.  This began as sort of a silly project, but I had no idea how much fun it would become.  The response has been surprising to say the least.  Anyway, thanks for being so engaged.  I think if you and I were able in a room together, it would be an invigorating conversation.  But even in this limited format, I truly appreciate you sharing your wisdom and passion.  Thanks!

artless artmore wrote:

It's been super fun spitballin' with you re historical OA pricing trends, smart choices, regrets, nostalgia, and life lessons learned. 

Of course, you're correct that my twin mantras were designed to keep me from thinking of collecting as investing, in part because I didn't want to dig myself into a financial hole with wild speculation and unfettered spending, but more because I didn't want to become consumed by collecting as an end in itself --- I fancied myself as an artist and having a couple original Frazettas on the wall would contribute to my art education.  Now that I see how high OA prices can go, and now that I'm too old to continue pretending retirement is still a lifetime away, I see how picking up a few more pieces from a couple other artists whose work was still cheap back then might have been a wise move, even if the "educational value" might not have been as great as for the Frazetta pieces (IMHO). 

The thing that gets me about the Wrightson Frankenstein plates is that they rise to the level of art I might have been willing to spend on back in the day had I been tuned into the OA market.  I did go to a con way back in 1984, but it was a local affair with a couple sketches and minor pieces available, nothing major.  I saw one color guide for the first page of the first appearance of Elektra by Frank Miller, and I rushed over only to find that it wasn't OA, but that put the idea in my head that original pages could be had at conventions.  I didn't make it to another con until '95 in San Diego, and I went every year after that till the early 2000s, and I picked up a couple things, but with the idea of getting what would help my drawing.  It was already too late by then to get the best high-end examples of Frazetta or Wrightson at prices I could afford, but as your posts make clear, lots of fantastic comic art by other greats could have been had for a song back then if I weren't such a snob at that time.  That includes lots of pieces I would love to have on my wall now regardless of cost. 

Well, I'm sure I'm repeating myself here... you're kind to have read this far.  No good deed goes unpunished, so I'll hit you with a few more unhinged ramblings:

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

artless artmore wrote:

While I'm self-indulgently jawing at you, here are some lingering (and pretty obvious) big questions that keep me up in the wee hours:  

1)  Are any current up-and-coming artists' original pages going to experience the same runaway value increases just as was the case for the best (and/or most popular...) comic artists in previous eras?  Again, this is important not just for investment's sake, but it would mean you have to figure out what will matter to you later in life and act now if you might want one of these pages on your wall in a few years.

2)  To what extent are the nutty OA prices we see now due to old, rich guys spending on nostalgic pieces from their childhoods?  Obviously, that's part of it, but given the recent interest in Krazy Kat, Carol Day, early Golden Age pages, and other books & strips from before most collector's living memories, I wonder if values might just continue to rise indefinitely.  

3)  Will the US enter a period of (hyper?) inflation or (gasp) deflation as the national debt continues to soar and we slowly dig our way out of the pandemic etc.  I could imagine OA prices going up or down in response to a market crash, with inflation/deflation playing a key role.  The skyrocketing hammer prices for key baseball cards (i.e., tiny, mass-produced rectangles of cardboard...) and slabbed (!) videogames, for instance, suggests to me that all collectibles are overperforming right now while the stock market is sky high and folks who didn't lose their jobs at the start of the pandemic just can't spend their surplus money on their usual pursuit while they're stuck at home.

4)  Are we now still in the same modern comic "age" that started in the 90s or will we look back a decade from now and say that we had entered a new phase in the history of comics?

5)  What fraction of comic artist will be producing physical pages of art 10+ years from now? 

6)  Will comic books still exist as an artform 25+ years from now?  I think new comics in some form will be created for as long as human society exists, but even if that's true, it's conceivable that it will become marginalized.  I don't know how many people currently read new comics, but it's true that many current movies are based on comics, albeit older comic storylines in many cases.

OK, I better get back to work (can you tell I'm procrastinating?).

Peter Sullivan wrote:

Its late Ditko Spider-Man. I mean, at this stage, just before his last issue working on the title, he was winding down. I presume whatever arguements he was having with Stan Lee ( the guy who did not give enough credit for years to the artists, who in many cases were co writing the work) caused him to lower the bar from Olympian heights. Can you truly say this is as good as earlier work on the series? Still better than most art on the site. No, I would not have bought this at the time. I would have searched for an earlier page. For this price you would have got a super duper example.